PHIL: So… here we are…
JORDAN: Yep, finally hanging outside the kitchen. I barely recognize you without your apron on.
PHIL: Yeah, I think I prefer you with the hair net…
JORDAN: (laughs)
PHIL: Maybe it’d fit over the cap.
JORDAN: (laughs) Yeah, yeah…
PHIL: What’s the deal with work? I heard you’re getting into trouble.
JORDAN: Trouble? I don’t know, man… But… I don’t know, sometimes I think the day manager, Greg, is just out to get me or something.
PHIL: (laughs) Greg? What do you mean?
JORDAN: Well, everyone’s late sometimes. Everyone misses shifts. But when I do it, Greg gives me all opening shifts, docks my hours, and puts me down for stall duty! I mean, what’s that about?
FEEDBACK: Saying he’s “getting into trouble” sounded critical and made Jordan defensive. If you want to help him open up and have an honest conversation about his behaviors, it’s important to be supportive, empathetic, and (above all) non-judgemental.
PHIL: It sounds kinda like what happened when we were working at Tracey’s. Remember your hours kept getting cut until you had to find something else?
JORDAN: (sigh) Yeah. I really can’t have that happen again. I need this job.
PHIL: What’s happening at work… I know that’s gotta sting. You’re the best we got on the flat-top--you’re like a wizard--and Greg has you doing grunt work.
JORDAN: Dude, I know! And, like, I told Greg I’ve gotta get more hours, that I won’t be late again. But he calls it a trial period. Said we’ll see how things go. (pause) I’ve half a mind to start looking somewhere else. I’ve got to get more hours.
FEEDBACK: Great job empathizing with Jordan. Even if you don’t totally agree with him, you’ve shown you can understand how his current situation is difficult. This made him more comfortable opening up to you.
PHIL: So, now that your hours are cut, whatcha doin’ with all that newfound free time?
JORDAN: Eh, been going out a lot. Hanging out with friends, going to parties. Not much else to do around here.
JORDAN THOUGHT: Even the parties kinda get old after a while…
FEEDBACK: Good job. Asking open-ended questions (those that can’t be answered with a simple yes or no) is a great way to get people to open up.
PHIL: So… how often do you go out? Who are you with?
JORDAN: Eh, a couple of old high school pals. Some of the guys from our old job… We go out, you know, every weekend, maybe a couple times a week… (trails off)
PHIL: What do you do?
JORDAN: Mostly we just drink a bit, y’know, smoke up, play some video games.
PHIL: Sounds like you go out a lot.
JORDAN: (lightly defensive) Not really. Some of my friends party a lot more.
JORDAN THOUGHT: Here we go… You always thought you were better than me, didn’t you?
FEEDBACK: Be careful. When you say Jordan goes out “a lot,” that’s your judgement. He may disagree and it may start an argument. Instead of focusing on how much Jordan goes out, focus on how it’s affecting his life.
PHIL: How’s going out so much affecting the rest of your life? Like work and stuff?
JORDAN: Eh… I don’t know… It’s weird. ‘Cause that’s the only time I really feel like myself anymore. When I drink… smoke up… go out… But then these friggin’ hard cases at work won’t even let me have that, and they cut my hours. It’s like I can have any two things -- a life, a job, or sleep… But… I can’t have all three.
FEEDBACK: Great job! By showing concern and interest in Jordan’s perspective--without being judgmental--you made him comfortable opening up. Now you know that, while he enjoys partying, he also sees the downside. He needs a supportive person right now to listen and help him explore these thoughts.
PHIL: What’s going on with school? You used to talk about getting a degree in something.
JORDAN: Yeah, I was thinking to get an associates. This girl I know is making bank with a computer engineering degree -- just a two-year program. But I gotta save up some cash for that to happen. I’d have to pay for school and I wouldn’t be able to work much for a couple years.
FEEDBACK: Good job asking about Jordan’s goals in life. It sounds like his aspirations have been on the back burner lately.
PHIL: It’s easy to get stuck in a rut. You know what I mean?
JORDAN: (thinking) Yeah… lately I’ve been feeling it more… with my hours cut and my money going down the tube. Not sleeping or getting any exercise. It’s like I’ve been sorta spinning my wheels for the last five years. (laughs) I need to keep a steady job, get out of my parent’s house… Maybe go to school. No offense, but I can’t do kitchen work forever.
FEEDBACK: Nice going. By listening to Jordan and trying to understand his situation, you were able to voice what he was feeling. He felt understood and, as a result, he really opened up to you.
PHIL: So what’s your plan for saving money and starting school?
JORDAN: Ha! I wish I had one.
PHIL: You haven’t thought much about it.
JORDAN: Every time I think about it, it all just seems so… (shakes head) I just end up toking and zoning out. (looks down, shakes head, gives a sad laugh)
JORDAN THOUGHT: I must sound like the biggest loser to you…
FEEDBACK: Good job. By keeping a neutral tone and listening to Jordan you got him to really open up about the downsides of his lifestyle. This has already been a really helpful conversation! Lastly, see if Jordan has any ideas for resolving the discrepancy between his current behavior and what he wants from life.
PHIL: Cutting back on all your extracurriculars should save you some money.
JORDAN: Yeah… (then with defeat) Yeah.
PHIL: You don’t sound so excited about that.
JORDAN: Well, I don’t like hearing it. But… I guess something’s gotta change. I mean, I’ve gotta get my shifts back at work and start saving. I… I can’t have any more late nights where I don’t make it in the next day or where I’m too tired to function. I know it’s a crap job, but I do need it.
JORDAN THOUGHT: What would I do with myself? I can’t hang out with the guys and not drink and smoke with ‘em…
PHIL: Sounds like it might be hard to cut back, but it may be worth it.
JORDAN: The hard part is not drinking and smoking around the guys. Maybe if I had other things to do instead of going out with them all the time. (pause) I’ve been meaning to start exercising again. (pause) I don’t know…
PHIL: Maybe we can run together? There’s a 10k next month that I’ve got my sights on.
JORDAN: Dunno if I want to run the 10k, but I can practice with you. Think you can keep up with me?
PHIL: (laughs) I’m not even gonna dignify that with an answer…
PHIL: It’s really great to catch up. Let’s get together more often. Too hard to talk about stuff at work.
JORDAN: For sure. Hey did you see that Rockies game last night?
PHIL: Did I?…
Congratulations! You completed the conversation.
After that conversation, Jordan’s behavior at work didn’t change, but he and Phil did start running together sometimes. He seems open to future conversations, and in general, it’s fine to have multiple discussions about these things. The main thing to be is supportive and let your friend know you’re there to talk when they need to.
There was one time when Phil came across a little judgemental. This made Jordan defensive. When talking about sensitive topics, it’s very important to keep a neutral tone.
In their next conversation, Phil could encourage Jordan to talk more about his goals and what he wants to change in his life, such as working more hours, saving money, and eventually going back to school. The best way to have a productive conversation is to focus on the other person’s feelings, not your own.
Phil took a moment to help Jordan thing of things he could do instead of partying. But if Phil had worked with Jordan, together, on specific solutions and thinking through possible obstacles will help him succeed. Ultimately it’s up to Jordan to decide what to do, and if Phil pushes him too hard, it could backfire.
To hear a more successful conversation with Jordan, listen to the next example.